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Discussions: FTP Archive File: Duke: rami-interviews-ihr

Отправлено от Fox - Friday, December 07 @ 01:02:20 MSK

RevisionismSWEDISH COMMITTEE AGAINST ANTISEMITISM Formed in accordance with the declaration of the Nansen committee, Oslo 1983 Box 34036 100 26 Stockholm tel (46) 8 667 60 90 fax (46) 8 663 01 02 Radio Islam Broadcast 13-14 December 1991 11 p.m. - 6 a.m. The following is a partial transcript of a Radio Islam broadcast first aired in December 1991 over the Stockholm communal network. The transcript contains about 70% of the IHR interview. The main feature of the broadcast was the interviews conducted by Ahmed Rami during his visit to the USA in early December 1991. Rami claims he was invited to the USA by "Black Muslims" to give lectures, and took the opportunity to visit with the Institute for Historical Review. By way of introduction Rami first plays some anti-Jewish parts of a speech held by Louis Farrakhan in Madison Square Garden in 1985, aired by Rami previously. After this he introduces his German "correspondent", Karl Philipp, who accompanied Rami during his trip to the USA and took part in some of the interviews. The IHR is represented by Tom Marcellus, Ted O'Keefe and Mark Weber. Ahmed Rami continually uses French or Swedish expressions. They have been altered only when interfering with reading comprehensibility. Please see copyright note at the end of the transcript.

/.../ MARCELLUS: First of all let me say how pleased we are to be here with Mr. Rami and Radio Islam, and speaking to the Islamic community in Sweden. This is a great and rare opportunity for us. /.../ PHILIPP: Tom, you mentioned the Holocaust and what is it, what can be refute on the Holocaust? It's, isn't it fact what we hear in the daily medias, 6 million Jews have been exterminated mainly in gas chambers in the Nazi territories. What is it what the Institute wants to [inaudible] on this? /.../ O'KEEFE: /.../ On the question of the Holocaust we revisionists, following in the American and international revisionist school, challenge the verdict of Versailles following the first World War and sought at least in this country to, to keep America out of the second World War. We have attempted merely to apply to the study of the so-called Holocaust the, the historiographical standards that should be applied to investigating any event in the past. And by that historical method the evidence for a Hitler order, a German policy to exterminate the Jews of Europe, the deaths of Jews in, in, in any numbers approaching 6 million and a massive use of gas chambers is, is, is, the evidence for that is, is virtually nil. /.../ PHILIPP: Some people are obviously what I heard from Tom not happy with the work you are doing, I heard of arson attacks and attempts. Why is this? /.../ WEBER: The Institute calls into question some of the most widely held beliefs of our time, which have enormous political and social significance. It's very, the whole story of the, during the second World War 6 million Jews were killed was a major part of the indictment the defeated German regime in 1945, and the...alleged extermination of the Jews was a major reason why the Allied powers were able to portray themselves as noble as they could, and in an effort to portray the defeated German regime in the most evil way as possible. But to call into question the story of the...6 million exterminated Jews, is to call into question...a major foundation of the State of Israel for example...And for that reason, especially Zionist interests have been very, very active in trying to stop the IHR at every turn. The Institute for Historical Review is certainly the major publishing centre in the world for books and articles, leaflets and so forth which call into question the generally accepted Holocaust story. And for that reason it has been viciously and enormously unfairly attacked by some of the most powerful individuals and organizations in the United States or even in the world. /.../ O'KEEFE: We are often attacked, it is often said and I believe this is through propaganda of the Anti-Defamation League of Bnai Brith, America's most powerful opinion police, they have said that we have no trained historians working with us. This is not true. We have at least 5 men who have attained doctorates in history on our editorial advisory committee. Furthermore, we have specialists, precisely because of the failure of literary and professional historians in this country and elsewhere, we have specialists in evaluation of texts and documents, specialists in the study of chemistry, specialists in the design and construction of gas chambers. In other words, we are getting very close to the facts or non-facts of this Holocaust just as in a routine criminal investigation...We are much closer to the actual details of what happened than the literary and paper historians who come forth, issue statements and testify at trials in Germany and other places. /.../ WEBER: I think it is very important to understand that what...the public believes is the Holocaust story, is not the same Holocaust story that was told 20 or 30 or 40 years ago and is not the same Holocaust story that even those historians who believe generally in the Holocaust story now accept. For example, many important aspects of the extermination story that were once held to be absolutely settled and confirmed, have been admitted to be untrue...It was once claimed that people were gassed at, in concentration camps in Germany proper such as Dachau and Buchenwald and so forth. These claims were made at the Nuremberg trial of 1945, 1946, but have since been completely given up. The attention has focused completely now to claims of gassings only at 5 or 6 camps in what is now Poland. Auschwitz, Majdanek, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, and essentially claims of extermination gassings have been given up in all other places, in all other camps. Other stories, such as stories that Jews were steamed to death in steam chambers during the war have been given up. Stories that Jews were killed in mass electrocution facilities have likewise been given up over the years, or the story that the Germans manufactured bars of soap from the bodies of murdered Jews is another canard, another myth that has also been abandoned. But the general public has what could be called a very Hollywoodish, a very childish view of a very evil Hitler who was ranting and raving about killing the Jews and gave order to kill all the Jews, and that there is this vast extermination apparatus set up for this purpose. That story...is not accepted by scholars, even scholars who generally believe there was an extermination of the Jews. Among those who believe that there was a mass extermination of Jews during the war, most of those scholars are now what are called functionalist, functionalist historians. They believe that there was an extermination but that it was not planned, that there may not have been an order for it, that there was no budget for it, there was no central organization for such an extermination and that it took place as Raul Hilberg, as Christopher Browning and others have, have written and said, as a kind of spontaneous...unplanned event, while we believe that all of this does is underscore just how weak, just how illusive evidence for any extermination program or policy really is. And we believe that the burden of proof should lie not with us who are trying to investigate this whole story, but the burden of proof should lie with those who make the accusations. And one of the most remarkable things that has happened in recent years, is that under the impact of Holocaust revisionism those people who try to uphold the Holocaust extermination story have been forced to try to present evidence for an extermination policy or program, and that millions of Jews were killed. And the astounding thing, for anyone who cares to really investigate it, is that the evidence that is presented is laughable, it's minuscule...it's very hard to believe just how ludicrous really the evidence that is presented by those who are now on the defensive and forced to try to defend this...accusation, this monstrous accusation. The other thing that I think is more and more obvious in recent years to millions of people in the United States and...in Europe and other countries is the political nature of the Holocaust extermination story, that is the claim that Hitler killed millions of Jews is used in a political way to justify policies even today in the State of Israel, or to justify American support for Israel. Without the continued and massive military and economic support for the State of Israel from the United States of America, Israel's very existence would be very quickly called into question. But...the Holocaust extermination story has other purposes as well, other political and...social purposes. And the very fact that in our time and in our day, that...what is said to deny the Holocaust is considered a crime is itself evidence of just how powerfully politically important this whole story is, because in our age, in our time it is not considered a crime or even considered...an offence to quote deny or to call into question any other chapter of history. One of the remarkable things is that...in countries which are considered, European countries or the United States, which are considered Christian countries it's not even considered wrong to as it were deny the divinity of Christ or to mock or belittle Christianity. What it shows I think is that the Holocaust story has taken on even a kind of theological dimension, it's become almost a kind of religion. And those people who defend it, especially the less informed people who...are in the mass media, defend the Holocaust story with a kind of tenacity which is comparable only to a religious faith. O'KEEFE: I'd like to agree with Mark and add something further...Revisionists are often accused of slandering the entire Jewish people by doubting the Holocaust, acting as if or believing as if the Jews have conspired as a group. I don't think that's true. But there is a small number, not merely of Jews but...of historians and politicians throughout the Western world who have indeed conspired to keep this ridiculous and slanderous story alive. I don't believe that a historian, a professional historian who has studied the Holocaust by the same canons as he studies any other subject and failed to see that it's a lie, that therefore by implication makes such an historian a liar. We know that these people are liars, they're learning that we know that they are liars, there's soon going to be a very interesting denouement. Furthermore, the politicians, the people who are using the Holocaust for its political impact to justify the murder of Palestinians, the slaughter of Arabs throughout the Islamic world, should bear in mind that they will be judged some day perhaps as sternly as the German people and their allies during the second World War and Germans today are being judged for their alleged complicity in these offences. Isn't it interesting that we drag out the same old lying atrocity stories to justify and to empower an assassin like Shamir, a mass-murderer like Begin, a low killer like General Sharon in their crimes against humanity? /.../ O'KEEFE: Of course our opponents quite unscrupulously confuse the difference between this intellectual construct, the Holocaust, and the actual physical things that happened to Jews and others during the war. They claim that by challenging the concept of a special Holocaust, a mass sacrifice of Jews, we are denying the existence of the concentration camps, the German policy on the Jews, the expulsion of the Jews and so forth. It's ridiculous!...In fact, anyone who reads revisionist publications will know that revisionists have, starting with Paul Rassinier...revisionist scholars have studied what went on in the concentration camps far more closely, and I submit far more sensitively than the exterminationists have. /.../ MARCELLUS: The Holocaust story as it has come to be known, as Mark pointed out, having developed into a very powerful propaganda political weapon, is the...allegation that the...Nazi German government planned and actually carried out a systematic annihilation of the European Jewish population...and that they largely succeeded in this, having killed 6 million Jews and that this was largely done in lethal gas chambers. So these are the 3 components of this, of this lie. First of all, that it was...deliberately carried out, planned and attempted. Secondly, that...it resulted in the death of 6 million Jews, innocent victims. And thirdly, that this...largely took place in lethal gas chambers. Well...we are attempting to revise this what has become orthodox or established history, especially here in the West, by pointing out the fallacy, by...bringing in people and associating with people who are investigating this in great detail and finding out that the emperor as it were has no clothes. And of course for this we've been attacked continuously. /.../ So we formed the IHR, and we began bringing these books out in high-quality affordable editions, we began promoting them in various places, we were getting them into libraries, we began publishing our quarterly Journal of Historical Review and our IHR Newsletter, and we found that much of the impetus to keep this going was not only that...thousands of people...really wanted this literature and wanted to learn more about the Holocaust, but that the opposition itself, in this country mostly the Anti-Defamation League of Bnai Brith and also the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, began attacking us so strongly that we...suddenly realized we must be doing something right, we must be on to something here. And...this also added to the impetus, so since that time interest in this topic...has continued to expand and grow because...we caught something here and we started to take it apart, and it's revealed that this massive, this massive campaign to convince the Western world of what allegedly took place in Europe...before and during World War II has...no basis in fact, and..this gigantic whopper as, as some of us call it here is, is all the more fascinating because of the fact that, that it is being shown to be a, a hoax. And so there are all sorts of angles on this, who..was doing this, why where they doing it, what's the effect of it, it's being used now as a political propaganda weapon, how is that being used, what are the ramifications, there's just enormous interest in this topic and we are practically propelled or compelled by people who, who read our literature and by our opposition to continue this line of research until we get to a final conclusion upon which all men of good will can agree. PHILIPP: Mark, how would you describe the reception of your work in North America, is it a growing readership and what kind of numbers would you... WEBER: I think there's no question that Holocaust revisionism is much better known and even more accepted in the last several years. It's hard to measure this thing very well, because many individuals who agree with us, who are inclined to support us are afraid to say so publicly. /.../ There is no question that the Jews of Europe suffered a catastrophe during the second World War. Many Jews died, many Jews were even killed, but what happened..is not one event. What happened to the Jews of Europe...could be compared to what happened to the Germans during the second World War. Many Germans died, many Germans were killed but we don't give a single name [Holocaust] to the fate of the Germans during the second World War...In the popular consciousness the fate of the Jews during the second World War has more significance, more import than the fate of any other people during the second World War. And that is a, an imbalance, a...distortion of history which we feel is really wrong and in fact this distortion exists for, we think, self-serving and obviously motivated reasons. PHILIPP: Well Ted, that leads to the conclusion Jews or Jewish organization must have tremendous power in the Western world, why would they otherwise be so much in favour of other nations although, as Mark said, they have suffered as well and we only know the, the label for, for one suffering and this for the Jews and the Holocaust. O'KEEFE: Well, I don't think you can blame Jews exclusively, many...groups are powerful throughout history, many groups have...pushed their own suffering. I think you can look at the...moral laxity of non-Jews in...surrendering to this, one must congratulate Jewish organizations, let's say the hierarchy...of persons and organizations which gives orders and leads Jews just as they attempt to Gentiles, for their persistence here...One can point out that this alleged near-extermination of European Jewry has had many names, and it's getting names still. It was 'genocide' or 'the final solution', then the 'Holocaust', now people who are a little more in, a little more modern refer to it...as the 'Shoah', in Hebrew I believe it means the destruction. And there is another word the 'Khurban' which is coming on, it seems to me...this is a little telling. Someone who has a dubious or shoddy product to, to merchandise will keep changing the name...for public relations in fact. Secondly, on this business of judeo-centrism, it's very true what Mark says. We have this magical 6 million number which has no basis in...any sort of realistic demographics whatsoever, but increasingly throughout America and the Western world the, the fate or what happens to Jewish people is judged on an entirely different standard than...what happens to other people. /.../ O'KEEFE: It's quite important to stress that despite what the media and what our professional detractors and enemies say, revisionism is not a right-wing movement, is not a racialist movement, is not a religious movement. We have, the revisionists writing now, producing for our Journal...and forwarding our work, who are Jewish, who are leftists, who are anarchists, who are homosexuals, who are fundamentalist Christians, we have atheists, we have one member of our board who is a Moslem, we have a Japanese member now, we have always been very, we're all Americans. The Institute for Historical Review has an American orientation, I believe it is most important for Americans to learn from revisionism. We as Americans profit greatly from the protections in our Bill of Rights. /.../ PHILIPP: I refer to Louisiana again and...such a breakthrough in, in the public voting for somebody [David Duke] who is described as a Nazi, as the incarnation of Hitler. If that continues and it...will come to a wider view in the public and your institute will succeed in getting...the message across that there were no gas chambers, this had been wrongly put forward, what is the institute's next step if that task has been fulfilled, if... MARCELLUS: Well, I think an important...aspect of all this is something we have to continuously keep in mind, is that when we are slandered by groups such as the Anti-Defamation League of Bnai Brith, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre and those are able to influence in the media, and we're smeared by them and linked with...these terrible words like neo-Nazi, antisemite and so forth, I think we have to constantly keep in mind that it's necessary for people to get to know us. It's necessary, maybe not, perhaps not personally but trough our literature, through our Journal and through our Newsletter. And the more people we can reach with this material, the better able we are to convince them that we are not a bunch of crazies, that we are not cranks, that we are serious scholars, that we're honest people. We're Americans, we're interested in the truth, we're not interested in attacking any specific group, we're interested only in bringing history into accord with the facts...What happened in Louisiana, the way the media attacked Duke and the words they used to attack him with, the way they slandered him, I think...it points up how important it is for Americans to, to know what revisionism is, what Holocaust revisionism is and what it means. And that the people who are promoting this point of view are interested, have honest motives, have decent motives and I think that the more we are able to accomplish this, the less effect the opprobrium in the media, the attacks from the media, the attacks from the ADL, the less effect these will have until finally, it our hope, nobody will listen to these, to these ranting and raving groups and will understand that they are ones, really, who are protecting interests. They are the ones who have a great financial and political investment in the perpetuation of these lies. Right now...they attempt to deflect attention on to us by calling us names, but I think as time goes on the spotlight is going to focus more on them and their motives, and I think as the public realizes that their motives are not very clean, that they are trying to protect vital interests, that that's going to start to change things in the United States and perhaps all over the world. /.../ WEBER: It is not us who say that the fate of the Jews during the second World War should be politicized or emotionalized. It is in fact over and over our adversaries, individuals for example as Elie Wiesel or Deborah Lipstadt who insist that the Holocaust is so unique and so special that it must serve a very important political and what they call educational role. We believe that if history is to be learned from, if we are to learn lessons from history as people say we should, it should be looked at with the same sort of objectivity that we look at any other aspect of history. And the history of the Jews during the second World War should not be given a special status different than that of any other aspect of history. And we believe that if one is seriously, tries to answer the questions we have raised one cannot help but come to the kind of conclusions that we have come to. But it is in fact our adversaries who insist that their should be no questioning, no discussion of this issue of history. In fact...one of the very, very sad and hypocritical aspects...of this is that many of those who insist, as a group of scholars for instance did in France several years ago when they insisted there must not be any debate or discussion about the gas chambers or the Holocaust, that many of these people are themselves scholars who insist upon investigating, insist upon scientific and sober and objective discussion about every other aspect of history. But on this one aspect of history they insist not...And one of the ways in which it has changed, is the matter of who is guilty for the Holocaust or who's guilty for all of this. During the second World War and for a few years right after the war the guilt was supposedly that of Hitler and his small group of, a circle of colleagues, or perhaps the guilt was that of the German people. But interestingly enough, in recent years the Holocaust story is used to in fact indict all of humanity. Increasingly, everyone is guilty. Not merely...the German people as a people, but all Europeans and in fact all of humanity is considered collectively guilty for this. It's...a further example of a real kind of judeo-centric view of history, that...what happens to one group of people...has this very special status. And another interesting aspect too of it in the last year...is that even the leaders of the Allied countries, of the United States and Britain and the Soviet Union are also increasingly considered guilty if not for carrying out the Holocaust extermination of the Jews but for permitting it to take place. This was done just recently by Elie Wiesel in an interview in which he denounced Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt for permitting the extermination of Jews to take place. And this is so perverse, this is such a...distortion of history. Not only of the objective facts of history but of the meaning of history that this points up again the need and the importance of the work of the IHR and of Holocaust revisionists around the world. /.../ MARCELLUS: I think, to answer your [Rami's] question as directly as I can, if..the media, if the mass media in this country treated equally and fairly the viewpoints that we have, as they do the viewpoints of the opposition I think...this would immediately bring, bring an enormous change, a political change in this country. The IHR itself...is not a political organization, but of course the work that we do has powerful political implications. If it were suddenly permissible to say that the gas chambers did not exist and we have proof, that the 6 million Jews were not killed because there is no evidence, if it were permissible to say this in the press and if the editors of the big newspapers and the writers of these newspapers were willing to say this, without at the same time accusing us of being crazy, I think it would make Congressmen, Senators free to, to criticize the Israeli lobby, free to...do things more...conducive to a better America and a better world rather than every time they do something, doing it for the benefit of Israel and Zionism. I think...if we could speak freely about this in...the academia, in...Congress and in the public forums, in the mass media, I think it would severely, severely reduce the power that the Zionist lobby has in this country and perhaps even in the Western world. /.../ RAMI: In reality the American state should give you help, financial help, because I think Philipp now ask you about the...Jewish propaganda which compare revisionism with AIDS. I think what is the characteristics of AIDS and cancer it is that when the body has losed the immunity, and I think the Jewish power, Jewish propaganda are the really [inaudible] immunity from the society because they are dominating all the mass media, TV, radio, and I think they are the really AIDS and cancer...and I think you are the little rest of the immunity in the American society, you are the symbol and sign of the health in the American society. And I think, as Muslim, I think all the free people must help you because to help you is to help the truth...I don't say that you have the absolutely truth, but you are fighting for the truth, for what you believe that is true...And we must help you...What our listeners, young pupils from the school, normal people, ordinary people from the Sweden, what they can do for to help the revisionists? /.../ MARCELLUS: We have a very popular and powerful pamphlet series of I think 7 or 8 different pamphlets that address various aspects of historical revisionism and the Holocaust story, and these, we have distributed the hundreds of thousands of these. Some of them are...in various languages now, perhaps if some of these could be translated into your language and, and these could be handed out to, around schools, in the neighbourhoods, perhaps...that would have some positive impact. WEBER: I have a very specific suggestion. I urge your listeners who support our work and wish to help us to get in contact and to contact Mr. Ahmed Rami, and to form an organization of revisionists in Sweden of Swedish people, because in many different countries now there are very active and very good organizations of...revisionists, in France, in Italy, in Britain, in Belgium, in the Netherlands, in the United States, in Canada, but as far as I know there's not a really good organization or periodical and such in Sweden. And we believe it would be a very, very good thing if those listeners who wish to help should organize together and the person to get in contact to do this would be Mr. Ahmed Rami. /.../ MARCELLUS: We do have a number of supporters that we send our literature to in Sweden and who do subscribe to us now...It's increasing, yes it is increasing. This is true of all European countries. /.../ WEBER: This charge of being Nazi, or neo-Nazi or being antisemitic is one that is made now I think so often that it is losing a great deal of its impact...And all these other kinds of charges, all these silly accusations in the long run will mean nothing. MARCELLUS: And I think your listeners should also know that, that we don't fear this term 'Nazi'. That we, we are in favour of studying that period of history and finding out the truth about that period. If Hitler did not order the extermination, if the Germans, the Nazis did not carry out the extermination, then let's know that, let us know that and let's talk about that and let's bring it out into the open, and let's determine what really did take place from 1933 to 1945. And just to close, finally...your listeners should know that the Institute feels that the United States should not have been in World War II, that we had no business being in that war and that in fact our own President at the time, Franklin Roosevelt, did everything in his power to get us involved in that war for various political reasons. So this again sets us up against the establishment if you will of history and makes our work very difficult but when people call us names like neo-Nazi, these are names that are designed to make others think that we are not legitimate. That name itself does not bother us. /.../ WEBER: Another example is that, it's a very, very thick book published...in the United States and in France by the Klarsfelds, a long book by Jean-Claude Pressac as an attempt to answer the revisionists. A very expensive, a very thick, a very well-illustrated book. This was also really a disaster for the exterminationist side, because the more they attempt to get into an argument, the more they have to deal with very specific questions, specific details. And the more one talks about specifics, the more one talks about real facts, concrete facts, the more this is a disaster for their side and the more this is a victory for our side. Because as I said before, the Holocaust story is really very largely a kind of political propaganda construction. And it's very interesting that those people, even many scholars who are supporters of the Holocaust extermination story go about defending it in precisely opposite way that a professional historian is supposed to operate. What generally they do is to start with the assumption that the Hitler government killed millions of Jews, and then they go out and try to find evidence to support that view. That is precisely the opposite of the way a historian should operate. A historian should be interested in gathering evidence and then determining what this is evidence [inaudible]. In the case of the Holocaust story, the historical establishment almost always operates in precisely the opposite way and in...really an illegitimate way. /.../ RAMI: Have you, Marcellus, something to say about the Zionist lobby...here in USA. What do you think about the future of this lobby, do you think that this power of this lobby is more stronger or how is the situation now? MARCELLUS: I think the power of the Zionist lobby is perhaps at its apex, or...no I would say it was at its apex 5 years ago, or between 5 and 10 years ago, and is now beginning to go on a downward trend. And I think...I see the power declining as we are able to say the word 'Zionism', as we are able to say the word 'Jew' or 'judeo' or 'Israel' without having to practically bow down and apologize every time we say it. I think the more we can speak about the Holocaust, the more we can speak about Israeli influence and Zionist power in this country, the more we can openly speak about it I think their power can only decline as a result of that. Free expression, freedom of speech in our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, we as Americans hold these rights very dear and I think...that the power of the Zionist lobby in this country can only keep a lid on this for so long. It can only stifle open debate for so long before it's gonna bust wide open, and when it does I...think it's gonna be devastating for the Zionist power in this country. WEBER: I would...add, I think there are two objective factors that have also been responsible for a change in attitude. One is...the intifada in Palestine. This is an event which...is now widely known around the world and has made it much more obvious the nature of the Zionist state in a way that was not obvious before. That is...I think an objective reason why there, a part of the objective reason why there has been a change in attitude. Another thing that has changed in the world and will have even a greater impact in the next 10 years and 20 years has been the enormous changes in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, the end of the Communist world. Because all of the new governments which have arisen in Eastern Europe are essentially revisionist governments. What we are seeing is the end of the post-war order that was established in 1945 by the victorious powers of the second World War, especially by the Soviet Union and the United States...The climate is now created for a much more objective understanding of history, and a much more objective understanding of really the world I would say, that was not possible before. For 40 years both the United States and the Soviet Union were essentially interested in creating a world, although they were adversaries and were against each other in many ways, each of these 2 countries were however in favour of a world in which, well, a national heritage, religion and culture would have basically be done away with and...subordinated to a world of consumers and producers. We have seen in the last several years though and...in the collapse of Communism an enormous revival of...national consciousness and cultural consciousness in Eastern Europe and in Europe as a whole. And this runs completely counter to the outlook...of the post-war order that was established in 1945 by the Allies. So we are seeing in, throughout Eastern Europe and...the former Soviet Union the rise of, of new states which are inherently revisionist in their nature. /.../ WEBER: In the last several months there has been an enormous increase in American popular support for...a foreign policy which puts American interests first. There's a very, very widespread belief and it's been articulated especially by Patrick Buchanan and by others as well but probably most eloquently by Patrick Buchanan, but there is very widespread belief that America is, is now facing very, very major economic and social problems here at home, and that America no longer really has the luxury any more of spending enormous money and effort and time in adventures in foreign countries...what you might say an America first policy. Well, this...policy really isn't so much anti-Israeli, but it has the effect of...being anti-Israeli because it's basically saying America should treat Israel as it does any other country. That is, we shouldn't have any special ties and give them special consideration and special money. There is going to be in the years ahead...a much greater clash, a much greater conflict between you might say Jewish-Zionist interests in the United States and...other interests here. For example, there has been increasing tension over the last 10 years between...Black Americans and Jewish Americans. And this was manifest a few weeks ago in what could perhaps be called a pogrom in...New York State, in which one Jew was killed by a mob shouting 'Kill the Jews'. Something like that hasn't happened in Europe since the second World War. And increasingly...as America sort of breaks down racially and ethnically, tension and conflict between various ethnic groups has increased in this country. Not between Whites and...non-Whites as much as between various non-white minority groups, including the Jews. For many years...Jewish groups were you might say the forefront or the vanguard of minority interests in the United States, but in the last several years other minority groups, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and so forth, are less and less willing to allow, in effect, Jewish organizations...to speak for them and to be their representatives. So that's something...that will change in the years ahead...Even though David Duke was defeated in Louisiana, the fact that he got the support he did is...an expression of just how deeply the felt the rage and disgust is among millions of Americans with the direction the country is going in...Now, all of this kind of dissatisfaction has not yet manifest itself in a very concrete or very specific political way. And again, when I was talking earlier about attitudes, popular attitudes towards Israel or Zionist interests, this again does not yet manifest itself in...concrete political form or in policy. But it's there and it's definitely a very palpable and real thing, and it's bound to be more consequential in the years to come. Rami now interviews Karl Philipp. RAMI: Now I will ask you Karl Philipp about the Jewish lobby or Jewish power in Germany today. Can you tell us what is the situation today? PHILIPP: Well, Jewish powers in Germany or I would rather say the influence and the power of Jewish organizations, I would not describe it as a general Jewish power, is certainly there and I like to quote a famous politician in the German Bundestag, his name is Heinrich [inaudible], he described it with the following words. He said: If I say shit-Jew I will be convicted, if I say shit-German nothing happens. So, as what he said, the relationship with the Jewish communities in Germany and maybe Europe-wide is not normal. RAMI: You mean that Jewish, Jewish lobby and the Jewish...community have privileges and that the Judaism has privileges, and that the German people...is discriminated in Germany? PHILIPP: Well, you could have put this way. Heinrich [inaudible] made it very clear. If...I getting convicted, if I even get a [inaudible] sentence when I say shit-Jew, but at the same time when German people getting defamed, getting called bad names nothing happens, so you can only conclude that they have certain privileges and I think this has to be stopped, it has to be changed. Otherwise we, the Jewish organizations themselves will create a tremendous anti-Jewish feeling in the country. Now when it comes to the boiling point that people feel they being oppressed, they cannot express their opinion, that they are not allowed free speech it will result in, in other terms of resistance. RAMI: I don't understand why the German people accept this discrimination. Why they accept that the German people have not the same rights like the Jewish in Germany? PHILIPP: Well, this is easy to describe. We have now a country you could say 24 hours a day in the electronic medias like TV and radio, we have...atrocity propaganda against Germany, we...getting told 24 hours a day and 30 days a month and 365 days a year what have done supposingly to the Jews, and that makes it in a way making the Jews saint and making the German people criminals, and I don't think that this could go forever without causing tremendous problems. RAMI: /.../ The Jewish power, the Jewish propaganda has tried to exterminating all national feeling in Germany. Do you think that the nationalism will...come back to German nationalism again? PHILIPP: It will as certain come back than as it came back in the east part of this world. Look at the Soviet Union, look at the eastern countries. It has been for 70 years not only suppressed, they have slaughtered about 60 million people just to wipe out national feelings. But you cannot wipe out a natural element which lives in the [inaudible] of people...it will come back with thrust. And this is what we experience now in Germany, and of course, again, Jewish organizations and their lobbyist politicians in Bonn and their lobbyist politicians in Paris and everywhere try to...eliminate this. But people start wondering why would the Jews in Israel not accept, why would the Israelis not accept any other influence in Israel, but Jewishsm [sic] at the same time, the same leaders, demand from other countries 'get yourselves destroyed by invasions of millions of other people'. And this is the question people asking now themselves, I give you more details. Rabbi Yitzhak from Toronto, Ginsburg from Toronto, he said in '89 first of June, it was printed on page 1, he said 'to slaughter Palestinians, that is allright. Because the blood of non-Jews and Jews are not the same'. With other words the blood of non-Jews is of lower quality, and that's allright to kill them. So this is an attitude which is shared by the leaders, by Jewish leaders throughout the world, for instance in Germany the leader of the Jewish congregation Heinz Galinski he is supporting Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg and he is supporting Israel so with other words he is supporting this horrible racist attitudes! And people wondering...why is allowed for the Jews being racist in a way which is terrible and disgusting, criminal. And at the same time these same Jews are demanding the European nations to surrender their national identity to millions and millions of immigrants. At the same time, what is it causing? For instance, in Europe especially Germany we had traditionally very good relationships with the Arab countries, excellent relationship. Real deep friendship you could say. Now, of course millions and millions and millions of Arab people flooding into our country, flooding into Europe, and no nation can accept this...This is invasion and any invasion is causing resistance. In other eras it had been war right away, this time because of the propaganda it's tolerated. But what do they achieve the Zionist propagandist in Israel? Naturally, our good friendship with the Arab states is suffering or even breaking apart because due to these immigration invasions the people in Europe start hating the Arabs. And this should not be the case, we should have our relationship maintained what we had before. We should really care for this and we should support the Arab countries with our technology, because it's our natural ally against Zionist power and attempt for world domination. So, and we have to support these Arab states and we...sell everything to Israel from the...biological weapon to atomic bombs, which they threat the Arab nations with it. That will never be a course of peace and we have to change our policy. So I think with this immigration business it's also part of Zionist strategy in Tel Aviv to put something in between...to create conflicts and this is what we have to [inaudible]... /.../ RAMI: But Jewish power they are totally dominated your country, the West, politically, juridically, culturally and economically. And this is...a paradox, big paradox that the mass media in your country they are telling very positive about the Jewish nationalism, nationalism, Jewish chauvinism. Even if this Jewish chauvinism, objectively, and is to kill, to exterminating Palestine people, to dominate [inaudible] this is Jewish nationalism, aggressive nationalism. But when I have been recently in Germany, and when I visit USA and when I [inaudible] in Sweden, people in the West are just asking about to be, to have their country to ourselves [sic], Germany for German peoples, Sweden for the Swedish people, France for French people and I think if this nationalism is just defensive, I mean the French nationalism, the modern German nationalism want just to have own country to own people, I think it's, it's positive. If...massmedia are telling positive...Jewish nationalism, which is aggressive because Jewish nationalism don't want only have domination on Palestine but want their domination...on German people, to own the German country, they are working for the German [sic] domination in USA, the German domination, Jewish domination in France and I think it's duty for every French, every German person to make resistance and to be....nationalist in the positive meaning, I mean if this nationalism is just defensive and not...make expansion like the Jewish and Zionist nationalism. PHILIPP: Well, of course. This is absolutely the fact. Nationalism is described...as you outlined it, just Germany for the Germans, France for the French and...Arab [sic] for the Arabs. This is natural thing, but the difference is what they try to telling us is that nationalism would be something like chauvinism, would be something like imperialism. But...who are the imperialists? USA is calling themselves far away from nationalism, but they suppressing the whole world. They are destroying the culture everywhere with oppression, with financial oppression, big military oppression etc. What is this? This is the real evil in this world! Nationalism cares only for their own nation in their own territory. What is wrong with this? This is a natural element. But of course they are telling us this is bad, because of their own activated strategy to destroy the nations. And look at their slaves, their lobbyists, I refer to Chirac in...Paris. What kind of guy is this?...Jacques Chirac in the first place playing along with the ideas of Zionist congregations in Paris, condemning nationalism saying 'OK, we need and we want all the Arabs' and now he says 'Arabs and Blacks are stinking people, we have to kick them out'. So, what kind of arrogant attitude is this? Of course, Arabs are not stinking people, they are just human beings like we are and the only thing is if they are coming millions it will be a hostile atmosphere. But you yourself, you are a Moroccan and I...think you can speak out of experience that there was never a hostile feeling against you in Sweden, and there would be none in Germany, there would be none in France as long the number is in a size where...people don't feel threat. So, it is obvious that it is a set-up of Zionist plans, you know, launching this conspiracy, creating hatred between the Europs [sic] and the Moslemic, Islamic world which should not be the case...it's a Zionist conspiracy! They want to part us, and this we have to avoid. And we have to support the Arab nations, I believe our natural ally is these days only the Arab, Islamic world. America...itself is, as I saw the other day in TV...to a great extent under Zionist lobbyism. So what can we expect from there? Nothing! Bush, George Bush, he launched the war against Iraq for and in the interest of Israel, and those who don't believe this, Chancellor Kohl had confirmed this himself 16th of September 1991 at a press conference in the White House and the Rose Garden together with Bush. It slipped out of his mouth, he said he doesn't know anybody who did more for Israel than George Bush. He even launched a war for him [sic] and took responsibility for it. You see, this is the domination of Zionist powers in that number one power of the world. So, in order to break this evil power we got to support, with our technology, with our economy the Arab world. We got to support the Islamic world, it's our natural ally. Our nationalism, the same as the Arab nationalism. It's a defensive element, it's an element caring only for their own but never imperialistic, never chauvinistic unlike Zionist...aggression, unlike US imperialist. Look, we are united in Germany now, they telling us we are a sovereign country. Now, why would, why do the Americans still have to be in Germany? Why is it still that we have to bear and endure the occupation of this country? There is no threat from the East! Who is threating [sic] us? Nobody is threating us. But I think the, the [inaudible] from this power are in a way scared that there could be a change of politics within Germany, and that's why they need probably the American occupation powers in order to maintain also Zionist powers. RAMI: Can I ask you, now the Jewish dominated mass media present this victory in Gulf war as a Western victory. Do you...think that this is a victory for the West or for the Jewish? PHILIPP: Well it's of course only, plainly a victory for Israel. It's a tremendous disaster for the West. There is a 150 million Arab people who are hurt by this action. This was absolutely terrible, it was unjust, it was a double standard and again I have to repeat myself, it was a war launched for Israel, Chancellor Kohl himself said this. This is a fact, it slipped out of his tongue! And people now asking, how come there were 700 resolutions against Israel over 25 years of time? /.../ PHILIPP: The Arab people will not forget whatever the propaganda tries to tell us. And this is what I call...a disaster for the West. We're gonna lose our face in the Arab countries and it is awful for the future. Our historical, wonderful relationships will suffer. And we have to stop this madness that the Western world will just do what Israel demands, we have to stop this madness. RAMI: You are from Germany, I will ask you, do you think that war, the war two was for America or for the Jewish...power? PHILIPP: Well, again I only can repeat myself. Kohl...himself confirmed it, it was the war for Israel. RAMI: And the World War II? PHILIPP: Oh, World War II, this is interesting. In 1933 the...Jewish World Congress already declared war against Hitler and no Jew was at that time really discriminated and being chased or whatever, so, and in '39 Chaim Weizmann declared 'we're gonna get America into this war, how we did it, the same way we did it already in the first World War'. Of course they had special interest in this Jewish organization...Zionist organizations in World War II as well, and now as Peres said two years ago after World War II the world became Jewish. That tells it all...I think, and this cannot go on forever. It has to be stopped, the relationship has to be normal and we cannot tolerate this kind of oppression in the world. RAMI: I remember somebody tell me that if we can...make liberation of the West we can help you in the Arabic world against the Zionist and I...answer them that if you can...make liberation of the West we can liberate the Palestine ourselves, because Israel cannot exist without support from your countries and I think now we in the Arabic world we are convicted [sic] that...must first liber [sic] USA, must first the people in the West fight for to liber the West from the Jewish power because Israel, the Jewish power in the world are dominated...the West and they using all the West as tool for to dominate our country and for to domination of Palestine. PHILIPP: Well, I like to quote Israeli...attorney, lawyer Felicia Langer who spoke recently in Stockholm and she herself stated that it, Israel succeeded very well by blackmailing the West, by getting the West - even America - under their thumb. And I agree, once the support in arms, once the support of money will be restricted to [sic] Israel...the problem for the Palestinian people and the suffering will come to an end. And all these people and politicians who are praising [probably meaning 'preaching'] humanity are most of the time hypocrites, because they are closing their eyes at the terrible, horrible massacres on the Palestinian people in a way what only sick minds can, can commit. When I heard this from Felicia Langer that pregnant women getting tied up with hand and feet and have to deliver their babies, what, how can you tolerate such a thing? And by the West, supporting Israel again with money, with arms and weapons and everything, this is supporting this crimes, this is being part of this criminal actions. That has to stop, that has to come to an end and we have to try to convince and to, to get this truth to the people, that they eventually will recognize here is a Zionist interest working and in place, and we have to stop this, we have to think of our own interest and that will solve the Middle East crisis. RAMI: I can tell you that when I was in Morocco, all my life I was...against nationalism, against chauvinistisc [sic] nationalism...Zionistic nationalism. But when I come to Europe and I met that all, all newspaper, all mass media, TV, radio are...make glorifiration [sic] of the Jewish nationalism and chauvinistisc, very reactionary nationalism. And in the same time they are fighting all mass media against the Swedish nationalism, German nationalism, fransk [Swedish for "French"] nationalism and I now hope that a very strong nationalism can wake again, can grow up...again in Europe for to fighting against the horrible, this criminal and expansionist Jewish nationalism and I hope even that a new strong nationalist leader can come...in German [sic]. And I ask you, is possible a new nationalism can [inaudible] in the West? PHILIPP: It will come. It's bound to come. We look at France, we see how Le Pen, it's gaining popularity, how he's gaining support from the masses and serious polls show if there would be an election today he could expect at least 20 percent of the votes. That means Le Pen's party, the Front National would automatically become the strongest party. We have seen the success of Haider in Austria, and certainly something will come up in Germany and all the other countries because it's an unnatural course what's taking, what's on the track right now and that will not go on forever. And again you pointed out absolutely correct, we have to denote, we have to see the difference of propaganda when they are telling us we are anti-, we are this and we are nationals, and we are of course of national care. Again, natural element! But we are not like the Zionist, imperialists, chauvinist who are going into other countries, eliminating the culture there, suppressing the people, killing the people! No, no, no! We are caring for ourselves and not in criminal actions abroad. This is the difference. And I like to refer again to Israel. Israel is the same country, nobody complains, nobody's dared to complain against Israel although it's the only country I believe, or maybe the second after South Africa which was condemned by the United Nations in 1975 being a - and still today this is valid - labelling Israel a racist country. So what is this? A racist country...from the United Nations condemned as a racist country, is denouncing other countries who only want to care for their own country, remaining...Germans, remaining French people, calling them nationalist! How is this? /.../ Stop Israel's criminal actions, this is all to it. RAMI: What do you...want to tell something to the Swedish listeners and to Swedish nationalist, in your opinion how can they make nice work, nice job for to fighting against the, this Zionist domination in Sweden? PHILIPP: Well, the first step must be, analyze what is the Swedish interest. And when they have determined this is our national interest, let's go for it. Automatically they will...discover all foreign, especially Zionist influence and will just cut it off. That just what we...have to do in Europe and everywhere, is to say [inaudible] Sweden first, and you're Jewish, you're Jewish in your congregations in this country, just adapt yourself to it. And obey the national law! And if Israel doesn't accept any other nationality within Israel, and if they even having a...very high check on immigrants they have to prove that for centuries! There have been Jews already. Good God, I mean we can at least ask for our minimum rights...you can live here, no problem but you obey our national law! And once this is determined I think the world will be in a better shape. Swedish people in the first place have to research, they have to look into it. They have to establish who is owing, who is directing the medias. Who owes [sic], is directing the economy. Who is, who has got the saying in the judicial system? And who is the influential part in cultural business and aspects? Democracy means fight concentrations, democracy means a widespread pluralism. In that case, look into it. See who dominates the medias, look into it. Who has got the economy in it's hands? Look who dominates the cultures and setting up this. Once you have analyzed, once you have determined you will immediately know where the Swedish interests [inaudible] down the floor, and you will have to re-establish Swedish interest. The real question is...are the Swedish interest really in the foreground? Or are Israeli interests are dominating? This is what Swedish people have to find out, what they have to analyze and to get it in a straight matter, to get it back to normal again. I refer to the nonsense what they're telling us with minority exclusive rights and if they refer to democracy, minority have to follow the majority. Why do they turn it upside down all of sudden? You see, in democracy the majority rules. But it, when it comes to Zionist interest, they just turn it upside down! All of sudden, minority should have privileges. This is nonsense, and I give you a more hardening example. In Israel the majority are Palestinians, they have been living there for thousands of years. Israel has driven them out of their wide land and in the occupied territories they haven't got a saying at all! Not even down to the lowest official office, nothing! Israel would never grant a Swedish person to have any rights in Israel, but they demand all the rights, Zionist lobbies demand all the rights for instance in Sweden. How to compare this? How to accept this? This cannot go on, every Swedish person must object this. Get your rights, and Israel should be happy with the same rights what Israel would grant a Swedish person. A Palestinian who has been driven out by Israel and who lives abroad has no rights to come back to his own country, but an Israeli can get right, can obtain right away Swedish [sic] citizenship. Every Jewish person in the world, every Jewish person - I repeat this - has got the fundamental right to come back to Israel, to settle in a land where he has never lived before. But a Palestinian - again, I repeat this again - a Palestinian has to be driven out by Israel from his own soil, is not allowed to come back, is not allowed to come back to his homeland. And this is a standard a democrat, a freethinking mind cannot tolerate. And I give you another example. Every, every Jewish person in the world is granted the right to go to Israel. It was established in the first place that this international law of humanity was violated from the very beginning. Just imagine that France says only a French person who can prove that he is French by blood for centuries is allowed to come to France. It would be a scandal world-wide, racism...would be the screaming. The same thing applies for Germany and Sweden. Israel can do it...without causing any complaints in the world. Jewish are allowed to come to Israel...come to a land which was taken away by violence from the Palestinians. And Palestinians who have been compelled from their own land, driven out by Israel powers, forces, are not allowed to come back to their own home land! And the world community is silencing this criminal actions down and I call on all Swedish people, when Jewish leaders in Sweden are demanding immigration laws that other nations can come in as they wish to, tell this people 'yes, we will accept this as once as Israel allows us and any nation to settle the same way in Israel. When this is settled, when this is equal, yes we accept this suggestion but not before'. RAMI: This...big problem that the humanity, human beings today must fighting for equality with the Jewish. Jewish today want...domination over all the world with special rights, with discrimination, with apartheid against other human being, especially against the Palestinian people, and...I hope that one day in the future the German people can have the same rights, equality with the Jewish people in your own country! It's a scandal [Rami's voice breaks] that you, Karl Philipp, militant nationalist, German nationalist, you have not, you have not right to express your opinion in the mass media as the Jewish have. If you are Jewish you have all mass media open for you, but because you are German you are discriminated! What is your feeling, feeling against this discrimination? PHILIPP: Well, this is why I feel very much attached to the Palestinians. I call the German state a Palestinian, a Palestinian state in Europe and yes I agree, I wish we would have the same rights and I hope the say will not be too far that we will reinstate our fundamental rights, and I hope it also in the sake of peace between Jews and Germans...in Germany. It, it cannot ever end peacefully if the majority is discriminated, if the majority has to suffer an apartheid. This time not in South Africa, this time between Jewish leaders in Germany being just the long arm for Israel, and the majority of German people. That cannot go on, and I appeal to every, every reasonable man to stop this! Otherwise the masses will revolt and it will then cause a lot of turmoil, a lot of trouble and, and innocent Jews will suffer, and innocent Germans of course. And I want to avoid this, I want peace. But peace can only be if we stop Zionist superiority. RAMI: And which we call the just peace, peace and the justice and the, because the peace without justice are not, is capitulation. I think the Palestine people, the Arabic people, Muslim people and the Palestine Golf [sic] in all the Arabic country are feeling the same as you, we are. The new Jewish world order want build this Jewish order on the Muslim and German peoples som [sic] capitulation. But I think any people in the world can accept humiliated like this humiliate, humiliating capitulation. PHILIPP: No, certainly not and again I, I state it again. I'm neither a militarist, I'm neither a militant and I'm just a national oriented German and I want our people have the same rights, as you said, than minorities like the Zionist in Germany and at least the same rights. And I also believe that what they doing at the moment can never, can never succeed...There's more than 1 billion Islamic population and naturally they are not very close to Israel, so you just cannot ignore this power and it has shown in the conference in Teheran and others. It has to be solved reasonable before, before a disaster takes place. And in the sake of humanity, let's be reasonable. Let's stop this madness! This is my appeal to all Europeans. RAMI: I, I read Nahum Goldmann book 'The Jewish Paradox', and he self tell that 70% of Israel...infrastructure are build of, with German money. Money from you! From your generation was not was living in the Hitler time, and now still you still pay much money to...the Jewish from Soviet was not, because the majority of the Jewish in...Israel are from Soviet, from the East, which have no problem with Hitler. What you are feeling against that, even your generation and the future generation must pay to the Jewish person, the Jewish state milliard and milliard [sic] Marks every year? PHILIPP: Well, this is a very interesting point and...it's more interesting yet to refer to, to 'The Jewish Paradox' by Nahum Goldmann. Yes, in 1979 the official amount paid to Israel and Jewish people world-wide resulted officially in 86 billion D-Mark. And it was said at that time that's the end, that's finish. But ten years later that amount was increased by another 47 billions up to the year 2030. And just recently, Israeli leaders demanded just double as much as was paid by now, when originally Adenauer negotiated 3,5 billions only. So, now we are, we have achieved, we have received, we are now in the [inaudible] 100 billions, will be increased by another 40 billions and now the demand is additional 100 billions. That means every non-born German, any child which will be born next year or in 5 years will have to carry this cross for its entire life. And as some Jewish leaders demand, forever the German nation will have to pay for this. But I give you something else to consider. It's not the German nation who only pays. America, the ally of Jewish people during second World War, the natural ally is paying every year more than any other country in the world for Israel. And look into your country, in Sweden. Let's suppose there was a demand from a third world country, let's say Mongolia, and a demand from Israel for money to the government of Sweden. What would you believe, who will get the money? Mongolia or Israel? So, it's not only Germany who has to carry the alleged guilt and car

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